Discussion:
Debs on immigration
(too old to reply)
srd
2015-08-15 19:51:32 UTC
Permalink
A member of the SPGB replied to me: "Debs v. Diamond"

http://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/1071/letters/

While the attempt to turn Debs into an open borderist misfires, Debs made some statements that I wouldn't have expected. His bleeding heart politics, extoling the "poor wretches" of immigrants who come only to better their families (sound familiar)denies that the real heroes are those who stay behind to fight in their native countries.

The Debs link is here: https://www.marxists.org/archive/debs/works/1910/immigration.htm

Another letter, "Calais mob," is very noteworthy.

srd
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-15 23:46:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by srd
A member of the SPGB replied to me: "Debs v. Diamond"
http://weeklyworker.co.uk/worker/1071/letters/
While the attempt to turn Debs into an open borderist misfires, Debs made some statements that I wouldn't have expected. His bleeding heart politics, extoling the "poor wretches" of immigrants who come only to better their families (sound familiar)denies that the real heroes are those who stay behind to fight in their native countries.
The Debs link is here: https://www.marxists.org/archive/debs/works/1910/immigration.htm
Another letter, "Calais mob," is very noteworthy.
srd
"His bleeding heart politics, extoling the "poor wretches" of immigrants who come only to better their families (sound familiar)denies that the real heroes are those who stay behind to fight in their native countries."

Exactly. The point made on APST years' ago. Anyone who has the gall to suggest the advisability of considering ANY (!)limits on "immigration" is up against NWO Agendaists, not defenders of working class power. The King Rat Walters is an arch-example of the breed. For years he denied that the supply of labour impacted on wages under capitalism and only recently had a change of mind on the matter. Sooner or later they all, like the faggots, "come out" as Open Doors Immigrationists as rab so stridently did recently. This tells us all we need to know about the main agenda of the Globalist Left.

They are unchangeable to the extinction the the West and its working class and any worker worth addressing doesn't keep that company any more.
srd
2015-08-16 01:12:06 UTC
Permalink
Do you know anything more re Debs's position--and, particularly, its roots?

srd
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-16 02:46:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by srd
Do you know anything more re Debs's position--and, particularly, its roots?
srd
I would explore Jewish influence in the IWW and in America in general at that time. There was a constructed set of arguments (some based on concocted atrocity tales, including the - then - oft repeated 6 000 000 number) to get Jews from Poland and the Russian Empire into the West. There was resistance to this in Europe (including from German Jews who found them an embarrassment) but the USA (which also had a growing opposition to "imbalance" - as witness by the 1924 immigration act - was regarded as wide open.

There was also the innovation of the subscription at the base of the statue of liberty which was deeply Jewish in character and authoress.

Pushing Jewish immigration alone (many Jews were then very plebeian) wasn't politically tenable, but pushing immigration in general - also a Jewish middle class "group strategy".

I will explore further.
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-16 02:56:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
Post by srd
Do you know anything more re Debs's position--and, particularly, its roots?
srd
I would explore Jewish influence in the IWW and in America in general at that time. There was a constructed set of arguments (some based on concocted atrocity tales, including the - then - oft repeated 6 000 000 number) to get Jews from Poland and the Russian Empire into the West. There was resistance to this in Europe (including from German Jews who found them an embarrassment) but the USA (which also had a growing opposition to "imbalance" - as witness by the 1924 immigration act - was regarded as wide open.
There was also the innovation of the subscription at the base of the statue of liberty which was deeply Jewish in character and authoress.
Pushing Jewish immigration alone (many Jews were then very plebeian) wasn't politically tenable, but pushing immigration in general - also a Jewish middle class "group strategy".
I will explore further.
Getting old: "inscription"
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-16 03:31:37 UTC
Permalink
Johnstone letter:

Debs v Diamond

In reply to Stephen Diamond (Letters, August 6), I would like to point out that, even after all those years that have passed, Eugene Debs still expresses it well:

Away with the 'tactics' which require the exclusion of the oppressed and suffering slaves who seek these shores with the hope of bettering their wretched condition and are driven back under the cruel lash of expediency by those who call themselves socialists in the name of a movement whose proud boast it is that it stands uncompromisingly for the oppressed and downtrodden of all the earth ...

If socialism - international, revolutionary socialism - does not stand staunchly, unflinchingly and uncompromisingly for the working class and for the exploited and oppressed masses of all lands, then it stands for none and its claim is a false pretence and its profession a delusion and a snare. Let those desert us who will because we refuse to shut the international door in the faces of their own brethren; we will be none the weaker, but all the stronger for their going, for they evidently have no clear conception of the international solidarity, are wholly lacking in the revolutionary spirit, and have no proper place in the socialist movement, while they entertain such aristocratic notions of their own assumed superiority" (www.marxists.org/archive/debs/works/1910/immigration.htm).

Debs was, of course, challenged on this view by others in his party, a response which may reflect some of Stephen Diamond's concerns (www.marxisthistory.org/history/usa/parties/spusa/1910/0820-untermann-replytodebs.pdf).

I leave it to Weekly Worker readers to judge who truly represented the interests of the American socialist movement - Debs or Ernest Untermann - particularly now, with the experience of hindsight.

Alan Johnstone
Socialist Party of Great Britain
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-16 04:10:50 UTC
Permalink
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/alt.politics.socialism.trotsky/wz$20foster/alt.politics.socialism.trotsky/cbGOD-_u9Y8/vRXPMcOCXWkJ

Some relevant material from APST:

You talk about "the Stalinists being immune from the influence of the
trade union bureaucracy". More than that, they were not immune from the
influence of the INDUSTRIAL WORKERS, unlike petty bourgeois
"Trotskyists" who live in a world of their own. If you read Marx's
letter to Vogt April 9 1870 (in Ireland and the Irish Question Foreign
Languages pp 202-205, you will find he says inter alia:

" But the English bourgeoisie has also much more important interests in
the present economy of Ireland. Owing to the constantly increasing
concentration of leaseholds, Ireland constantly sends her own surplus
to the English labour market, and thus FORCES DOWN WAGES AND LOWERS THE
MATERIAL AND MORAL POSITION (my emphasis) of the English working
class."

And, further, the English WORKING CLASS were well aware of this:

"And most important of all! Every industrial and commercial centre in
England now possesses a working class DIVIDED into two HOSTILE camps,
English proletarians and Irish proletarians. The ordinary English
worker hates the Irish worker as a competitor who LOWERS HIS STANDARD
OF LIFE (my emphasis). In relation to the Irish worker he regards
himself as a member of the ruling nation and consequently he becomes a
tool of the English aristocrats and capitalists against Ireland, thus
strengthening their domination over himself. He cherishes religious,
social, and national prejudices against the Irish worker. His attitude
towards him is much the same as that of the "poor whites" to the
"niggers" in the former slave states of the U.S.A.. The Irishman
pays him back with interest in his own money. He sees in the English
worker both the accomplice and the stupid tool of the English rule in
Ireland."

So forget the stuff about the "trade union bureaucracy". The CPA was
acting under the pressure of the INFORMED opinion of the working
people. And as I have posted before, there was equally strident
opposition to Australian labour markets being flooded by (NOW GET THIS)
BRITISH workers under the Empire Settlement Act 1922. Racism MY ARSE.


As to the stuff about the ALP and the so called "White Australia
Policy" which did not exist as a formal policy any more than similar
"policies" in the USA, NZ and Canada, it has its own history. It was
not simply based on "prejudice" but had a strong basis in a class
struggle against sections of the capitalist class wanting to use the
standard methods of the British imperialists and import masses of cheap
coolie labour to drive down and culturally undermine the Anglo celtic
population coming from lands which gave rise to the ethos of the modern
labour movement. I refer to Chartism, Trade Unionism and so on.
Yes it was belated in Australia, but that is not due to some
half-witted idea that Australians were any more racist than say yankees
(I have indelible memories of these wonderboys in Vietnam: "gooks" etc
etc etc.

nada:
In the US today we are not faced with mass unemployment. Officially
it's 4%. We always double it to 8% for realism sake.
As I have said before: as Gerry Healy used to say: you have a touching
faith in the capitalism. Listen mate, most of the jobs around today are
shit part time short contract jobs and when people apply and miss out
they often find that there were dozens of applicants. Can you not see
that there are OBJECTIVE forces at work here transcending opinions.
Capitalists in the USA HAVE to drive down wages and conditions in order
to earn the going rate of profit in the medium to long term OR ELSE GO
OUT OF BUSINESS. And this rate of profit is increasingly dominated by
labour at a tiny fraction of the cost of the current rate in the West.
The function of the reserve army, brought about largely through
immigration of skilled and unskilled labour, is to do just that. And
there is nothing at all new in that.
Within that context there is a role for trade unions but they are
seriously weakened by the lack of homogeneity of the workforce arising
from new immigrants and by the numbers. See my posting by WZ Foster on
this. In Fact I will transcribe it again:

William Z Fosters' book History of the Communist Party of the United
States:

"During the decade of the war and post-war period the working class
greatly changed. The number of workers engaged in industry was up by
31.6 percent. The sharp dividing line between skilled and unskilled was
greatly blurred by the growth of mass production. A considerable Negro
proletariat had grown up in the northern industries. And with
immigration shut off, the speed of Americanisation of the foreign born
workers had been hastened. All this made for a greater homogeneity and
solidarity amongst the workers."
srd
2015-08-16 04:45:45 UTC
Permalink
Debs proclaimed, "Socialism is Christianity in action."

srd
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
Post by srd
Do you know anything more re Debs's position--and, particularly, its roots?
srd
I would explore Jewish influence in the IWW and in America in general at that time. There was a constructed set of arguments (some based on concocted atrocity tales, including the - then - oft repeated 6 000 000 number) to get Jews from Poland and the Russian Empire into the West. There was resistance to this in Europe (including from German Jews who found them an embarrassment) but the USA (which also had a growing opposition to "imbalance" - as witness by the 1924 immigration act - was regarded as wide open.
There was also the innovation of the subscription at the base of the statue of liberty which was deeply Jewish in character and authoress.
Pushing Jewish immigration alone (many Jews were then very plebeian) wasn't politically tenable, but pushing immigration in general - also a Jewish middle class "group strategy".
I will explore further.
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-16 05:07:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by srd
Debs proclaimed, "Socialism is Christianity in action."
srd
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
Post by srd
Do you know anything more re Debs's position--and, particularly, its roots?
srd
I would explore Jewish influence in the IWW and in America in general at that time. There was a constructed set of arguments (some based on concocted atrocity tales, including the - then - oft repeated 6 000 000 number) to get Jews from Poland and the Russian Empire into the West. There was resistance to this in Europe (including from German Jews who found them an embarrassment) but the USA (which also had a growing opposition to "imbalance" - as witness by the 1924 immigration act - was regarded as wide open.
There was also the innovation of the subscription at the base of the statue of liberty which was deeply Jewish in character and authoress.
Pushing Jewish immigration alone (many Jews were then very plebeian) wasn't politically tenable, but pushing immigration in general - also a Jewish middle class "group strategy".
I will explore further.
Debs was a moralist, a child of a wealthy, first generation mill owner. He was heavily influenced by those who had the theory which his family didn't bring with them to America (from France). Those who brought it were Jews. That gave them great authority in all matters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_V._Debs

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_L._Berger

http://jewishcurrents.org/tag/iww


Generally Jewish workers were not in the IWW (?)...too violent it seems,
I will find this source & post it later. But middle class Jews ("intellectuals" - mostly first generation immigrants) were its leaders (a pattern I commented on in relation to the Polish Communist Party vs the Fascist voting pattern of most Polish Jews)...

The IWW was embedded in immigrants and in some ways were captives of the 'culture'.
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-16 05:13:13 UTC
Permalink
On the net and in recently published books and Leftist articles there is a grand chorus of eulogising this side of Debs; undoubtedly part of the Globalising project.

Finding the genesis of his ideas on the net is like trying to find references to homosexuality being a pathology.
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-16 05:40:42 UTC
Permalink
Generally Jewish workers were not in the IWW (?)...too violent it seems,

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=FbATLP10dXAC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq#v=onepage&q&f=false
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-16 05:48:06 UTC
Permalink
Brilliant and in three parts:

Revisiting the 19th-Century Russian Pogroms, Part 1: Russia's Jewish Question

http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2012/05/revisiting-the-19th-century-russian-pogroms-part-1-russias-jewish-question/



The push for Jewish migration to USA:

SIX MILLION JEWS 1915-1938 HD

srd
2015-08-16 06:18:29 UTC
Permalink
http://www.workersliberty.org/node/2193

Do these Zionists not understand the implications?

srd
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-16 07:33:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by srd
http://www.workersliberty.org/node/2193
Do these Zionists not understand the implications?
srd
There are none so blind as they who - will NEVER - see - even when they present the evidence that points in the opposite direction to their prejudices, or rather complicity.

I know you don't have to be a Jew to be a Zionist (though it undoubtedly helps, particularly if we are talking about the constant variety), but I'd guess that Alan Johnston(e) is both.

By the way, this notion, sometimes encountered among the Patriotic Right - that there is some eternal predilection of "The Jew" to immigration is nonsense. Just look at Israel or Jews in Australia say 50 years' ago. They were assimilating and "only" wanted Australians to have as warm an attitude to the new state of Israel as they had. And the motives among Tribalists in the time of Debs is entirely different to the far more Jewish-hegemonic Global motive of today.
srd
2015-08-16 06:21:36 UTC
Permalink
Although Debs's position wasn't itself open-borderist--the issue was socialist policy, not border control--had the open borders issue arisen (as it did at the end of his life), would he have been an open-borderist?

I can't say I have any confidence in the answer, one way or the other.

srd
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-16 07:43:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by srd
Although Debs's position wasn't itself open-borderist--the issue was socialist policy, not border control--had the open borders issue arisen (as it did at the end of his life), would he have been an open-borderist?
I can't say I have any confidence in the answer, one way or the other.
srd
Well, it opened the door to that, but, as you say, the point was never reached - as it is today and has brought the rat infested WRP Globalo-retards out into the open.


In a sense, the CPUSA was the heir to much of what was the Anarcho-Syndicalist IWW (certainly was in Australia). And they implicitly give approval to the spiking, control, of the process in that piece from WZ Foster's authorized "History (of the Communist Party of the United States") p.196,7.
srd
2015-08-17 19:40:48 UTC
Permalink
Any thoughts on Untermann's position.

srd
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-18 10:38:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by srd
Any thoughts on Untermann's position.
srd
(Para. Macaulay who was referring to Presbyterians!!) "Don't talk to me of Petty Bourgeois Christian Bleeding Heart Moralists! I can smell a Petty Bourgeois Christian Bleeding Heart Moralist a mile orrf!"

And they don't even have to present themselves as Christians, but as "Atheists", "Agnostics" or - Heaven forbid - "Marxists". But make no mistake: they are deeply immersed in their hypocritical, inconsistent, very partisan version of "Cultural Christianity". Like that encountered e.g. in sanctimonious Irish Catholics (a list would be far too long) or of overpoweringly sanctimonious Calvinist Scots - like George "Zionist" Free Zone Galloway.

The above description fits Debs for sure as his reply to the proletarian Untermann's letter clearly shows, though Untermann stopped short of saying it.
And by an uncanny coincidence it meshed in with the hegemonic "Jewish comrades", with their own loaded Agenda for America, deeply Tribal in character ((Something Debs wasn't and today's Cultural Christians aren't - to the detriment of their own tribe)).



A Reply to Debs by Ernest Untermann Published in Social-Democratic Herald [Milwaukee, WI], Wisconsin Edition, vol. 13, no. 16, whole no. 629 (Aug. 20, 1910), pg. 2. A letter from Comrade

Debs in the July issue of the International Socialist Review, assailing the majority of the Committee on Immigration and its report to the national convention of the Socialist Party [National Congress, Chicago, May 15-21, 1910], has been brought to my notice but recently.

Comrade Debs calls our report "unsocialistic, reactionary, and in truth outrageous." He claims that "the plea that certain races are to be excluded because of tactical expediency would be entirely consistent in a bourgeois convention of self-seekers."

He feels that he would take his stand "upon this vital proposition" against the world and no "specious argument of subtle and sophisticated defenders of the Civic Federation unionism, who do not hesitate to sacrifice principles for numbers and jeopardize ultimate success for immediate gain" could move him to turn his back upon the oppressed, etc., etc.

Outside of such unwarranted assertions and insinuations, the letter of Comrade Debs contains nothing and winds up with an invitation to some unnamed parties to "desert" because "we" (Debs and his fellow sentimentalists) refuse to shut the international door in the faces of their own brethren, etc., etc., in the approved oratorical style.

Comrade Debs insinuates that those who offered the majority report "have no proper place in the socialist movement while they entertain such aristocratic notions of their own assured superiority." And this is the whole argument: A mass of unsupported and unwarranted assumptions and personal flings, which show that he did not take the trouble to read the arguments made by the 1 majority in support of their report, but that he at once jumped to wild conclusions as soon as he had finished his hasty perusal of the majority report. It seems to me that this letter of Comrade Debs is itself a pretty fair illustration of his "aristocratic notion of his own superiority."

I am compelled to reply that he is not the sole judge of what is "socialistic, reactionary, and outrageous," and that the majority of the committee emphatically repudiate the charge of having acted contrary to the fundamental principles of Socialism, or of having toadied to the reactionary element in the "Civic Federation unionism."

Our report contained a number of very definite propositions. If Comrade Debs wishes to argue against our report, it is his business to refute these specific points. Mere invective and sentimental oratory will not refute facts.

And it is the facts upon which we base our report that Comrade Debs has not faced. Among the definite points made by our report are the following:

1. That international solidarity can be promoted without having the workers of all nations and all races come to America. If that is so, the policy of exclusion cannot be said to be necessarily in conflict with the principle of international solidarity.

2. That the development of capitalism in Europe, Asia, and America is so far apart in the matter of time that the European immigrants, even from the most backward parts of that continent, are easily assimilable in America in the course of a few generations, whereas the immigrants from Asia are not, as more than 50 years of experience have shown.

3. The presence of the negroes in the Southern states has already burdened us with a race problem, which makes the agitation for Socialism and the effective organization of the Socialist Party in the Southern states very difficult, so long as the race feeling between whites and negroes is a fact. The immigration of large masses of Orientals intensifies this race problem and to that extent increases the difficulties of organization for bonafide unions and for the Socialist Party. 2

4. Whenever an issue between capitalists and laborers arises, the presence of different races invariably leads to a race issue between the workers instead of to a class issue between the workers regardless of race on one side and capitalists on the other. This overshadowing of the class struggle by a race feeling leads to reactionary results, retards the progress toward Socialism, and helps the capitalist class.

5. The great capitalists are the principle beneficiaries of Oriental immigration, and they use it consciously as a weapon against the labor unions and against the Socialist Party. By advocating a repeal of the exclusion laws and a free immigration of Orientals, the Socialist Party would be assisting the capitalists and raising its own enemies to power.

6. the exclusion of these races gives the revolutionary workers a tactical advantage and enables them so much better to drive the capitalists from power and bring about real international solidarity of the workers.

7. Any argument which ignores the difference in the environment of European and Asiatic immigrants, any insinuation that we exclude these Asiatics ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR RACE, misses the main point of the position of the majority report. In my capacity as chairman of the old and new Committee on Immigration, I shall be much obliged to Comrade Debs for any light which he may be able to shed on the truth or untruth of these propositions. I have a right to expect more than mere invective and oratory from Comrade Debs on this matter, and I await his arguments.

Wash.
3 Edited by Tim Davenport 1000 Flowers Publishing, Corvallis, OR * March 2012 * Non-commercial reproduction permitted.
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-18 11:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
Post by srd
Any thoughts on Untermann's position.
srd
(Para. Macaulay who was referring to Presbyterians!!) "Don't talk to me of Petty Bourgeois Christian Bleeding Heart Moralists! I can smell a Petty Bourgeois Christian Bleeding Heart Moralist a mile orrf!"
And they don't even have to present themselves as Christians, but as "Atheists", "Agnostics" or - Heaven forbid - "Marxists". But make no mistake: they are deeply immersed in their hypocritical, inconsistent, very partisan version of "Cultural Christianity". Like that encountered e.g. in sanctimonious Irish Catholics (a list would be far too long) or of overpoweringly sanctimonious Calvinist Scots - like George "Zionist" Free Zone Galloway.
The above description fits Debs for sure as his reply to the proletarian Untermann's letter clearly shows, though Untermann stopped short of saying it.
And by an uncanny coincidence it meshed in with the hegemonic "Jewish comrades", with their own loaded Agenda for America, deeply Tribal in character ((Something Debs wasn't and today's Cultural Christians aren't - to the detriment of their own tribe)).
A Reply to Debs by Ernest Untermann Published in Social-Democratic Herald [Milwaukee, WI], Wisconsin Edition, vol. 13, no. 16, whole no. 629 (Aug. 20, 1910), pg. 2. A letter from Comrade
Debs in the July issue of the International Socialist Review, assailing the majority of the Committee on Immigration and its report to the national convention of the Socialist Party [National Congress, Chicago, May 15-21, 1910], has been brought to my notice but recently.
Comrade Debs calls our report "unsocialistic, reactionary, and in truth outrageous." He claims that "the plea that certain races are to be excluded because of tactical expediency would be entirely consistent in a bourgeois convention of self-seekers."
He feels that he would take his stand "upon this vital proposition" against the world and no "specious argument of subtle and sophisticated defenders of the Civic Federation unionism, who do not hesitate to sacrifice principles for numbers and jeopardize ultimate success for immediate gain" could move him to turn his back upon the oppressed, etc., etc.
Outside of such unwarranted assertions and insinuations, the letter of Comrade Debs contains nothing and winds up with an invitation to some unnamed parties to "desert" because "we" (Debs and his fellow sentimentalists) refuse to shut the international door in the faces of their own brethren, etc., etc., in the approved oratorical style.
Comrade Debs insinuates that those who offered the majority report "have no proper place in the socialist movement while they entertain such aristocratic notions of their own assured superiority." And this is the whole argument: A mass of unsupported and unwarranted assumptions and personal flings, which show that he did not take the trouble to read the arguments made by the 1 majority in support of their report, but that he at once jumped to wild conclusions as soon as he had finished his hasty perusal of the majority report. It seems to me that this letter of Comrade Debs is itself a pretty fair illustration of his "aristocratic notion of his own superiority."
I am compelled to reply that he is not the sole judge of what is "socialistic, reactionary, and outrageous," and that the majority of the committee emphatically repudiate the charge of having acted contrary to the fundamental principles of Socialism, or of having toadied to the reactionary element in the "Civic Federation unionism."
Our report contained a number of very definite propositions. If Comrade Debs wishes to argue against our report, it is his business to refute these specific points. Mere invective and sentimental oratory will not refute facts.
1. That international solidarity can be promoted without having the workers of all nations and all races come to America. If that is so, the policy of exclusion cannot be said to be necessarily in conflict with the principle of international solidarity.
2. That the development of capitalism in Europe, Asia, and America is so far apart in the matter of time that the European immigrants, even from the most backward parts of that continent, are easily assimilable in America in the course of a few generations, whereas the immigrants from Asia are not, as more than 50 years of experience have shown.
3. The presence of the negroes in the Southern states has already burdened us with a race problem, which makes the agitation for Socialism and the effective organization of the Socialist Party in the Southern states very difficult, so long as the race feeling between whites and negroes is a fact. The immigration of large masses of Orientals intensifies this race problem and to that extent increases the difficulties of organization for bonafide unions and for the Socialist Party. 2
4. Whenever an issue between capitalists and laborers arises, the presence of different races invariably leads to a race issue between the workers instead of to a class issue between the workers regardless of race on one side and capitalists on the other. This overshadowing of the class struggle by a race feeling leads to reactionary results, retards the progress toward Socialism, and helps the capitalist class.
5. The great capitalists are the principle beneficiaries of Oriental immigration, and they use it consciously as a weapon against the labor unions and against the Socialist Party. By advocating a repeal of the exclusion laws and a free immigration of Orientals, the Socialist Party would be assisting the capitalists and raising its own enemies to power.
6. the exclusion of these races gives the revolutionary workers a tactical advantage and enables them so much better to drive the capitalists from power and bring about real international solidarity of the workers.
7. Any argument which ignores the difference in the environment of European and Asiatic immigrants, any insinuation that we exclude these Asiatics ON ACCOUNT OF THEIR RACE, misses the main point of the position of the majority report. In my capacity as chairman of the old and new Committee on Immigration, I shall be much obliged to Comrade Debs for any light which he may be able to shed on the truth or untruth of these propositions. I have a right to expect more than mere invective and oratory from Comrade Debs on this matter, and I await his arguments.
Wash.
3 Edited by Tim Davenport 1000 Flowers Publishing, Corvallis, OR * March 2012 * Non-commercial reproduction permitted.
Untermann was a delegate to the 1910 "National Congress" and 1912 National Convention of the Socialist Party, chairing the organization's Committee on Immigration.[11] He was a chief author, along with Joshua Wanhope (1863-1945), of a resolution on immigration which was pro-exclusionary -- called "racist" by its critics -- backing the AF of L in its desire to stop manufacturers from importing cheap, non-union labor from the Far East. Untermann and Wanhope were joined as a majority on this point by journalist Robert Hunter and J. Stitt Wilson of California.[12]

John Spargo, Meyer London**, and Leo Laukki (1880-1938) were the minority on this committee, opposing exclusionism.

((DT: NB, amonst other things)): UNTERMANN AND WANHOPE'S MAJORITY PROPOSAL WAS EFFECTIVELY KILLED BY THE CONVENTION ON MOTION BY CHARLES SOLOMON OF NEW YORK not to receive the committee's report, but rather to hold the matter open for further investigation and final decision by the next party convention, scheduled for four years hence.[13]

Untermann later served as Foreign Editor of Victor Berger's socialist daily, the Milwaukee Leader, beginning in 1921. Untermann wrote editorials relating to international affairs for the publication, with editorials on domestic affairs written by John M. Work.[14]
.....

**Meyer London was born in Kalvarija, Lithuania (then part of the Russian Empire) on December 29, 1871. Meyer's father, Efraim London, was a former Talmudic scholar who had become politically revolutionary and philosophically agnostic, while his mother had remained a devotee of Judaism.[3] His father had established himself as a GRAIN MERCHANT in Zenkov, a small town located in Poltava province of the Ukraine, but his financial situation was poor and in 1888 his father emigrated with Meyer's younger brother to the United States, leaving Meyer behind.


DT: Note the petty bourgeois social background of the Open Doors for ALL cosmopolitans, including Debs, versus the proletarian of the core of the "restricionists".

The cultural points made by Untermann were an entirely valid consideration of the AMERICAN labour movement as Untermann - briefly - establishes in this reply to Debs.


I am reminded a little of my proposition that it would have been to the great advantage of the American labour movement (not to mention that of the present*!) if there had been a plebeian revolt of the marginalised nascent proletariat of the South had met the slave boats and turned them around as happened with the convict ships by the Anti-Transportation League in Sydney.

*as well as lakes of blood shed in the Civil War
srd
2015-08-18 18:41:14 UTC
Permalink
But Untermann was also an arch social-imperialist and reformist. He even called upon the U.S. to annex Mexico. http://tinyurl.com/oecfew2



srd
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-18 23:52:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by srd
But Untermann was also an arch social-imperialist and reformist. He even called upon the U.S. to annex Mexico. http://tinyurl.com/oecfew2
srd
Jees he was prescient in THAT! Or did he get it around the wrong way?

How are his arguments for that supposed to impinge on his arguments above?
srd
2015-08-19 00:46:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
Post by srd
But Untermann was also an arch social-imperialist and reformist. He even called upon the U.S. to annex Mexico. http://tinyurl.com/oecfew2
srd
Jees he was prescient in THAT! Or did he get it around the wrong way?
How are his arguments for that supposed to impinge on his arguments above?
If you attribute a proletarian character to a wing of a party (like Untermann's in the SP), you should expect fairly consistent proletarian views on a variety of topics. (The opposite for petty bourgeois.) Yet Debs was right on most things against Untermann.

srd
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-19 10:46:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by srd
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
Post by srd
But Untermann was also an arch social-imperialist and reformist. He even called upon the U.S. to annex Mexico. http://tinyurl.com/oecfew2
srd
Jees he was prescient in THAT! Or did he get it around the wrong way?
How are his arguments for that supposed to impinge on his arguments above?
If you attribute a proletarian character to a wing of a party (like Untermann's in the SP), you should expect fairly consistent proletarian views on a variety of topics. (The opposite for petty bourgeois.) Yet Debs was right on most things against Untermann.
srd
We might, but I don't know the details of all of this, which of course has to be read in the context of the times (though the 'Mexican annexation proposal' - was obviously wrong. But was this simply a rhetorical gesture? Even if it were true, his points in that single document are legitimate and Debs answers betray his brand of Christian moralising.
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-21 07:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
Post by srd
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
Post by srd
But Untermann was also an arch social-imperialist and reformist. He even called upon the U.S. to annex Mexico. http://tinyurl.com/oecfew2
srd
Jees he was prescient in THAT! Or did he get it around the wrong way?
How are his arguments for that supposed to impinge on his arguments above?
If you attribute a proletarian character to a wing of a party (like Untermann's in the SP), you should expect fairly consistent proletarian views on a variety of topics. (The opposite for petty bourgeois.) Yet Debs was right on most things against Untermann.
srd
We might, but I don't know the details of all of this, which of course has to be read in the context of the times (though the 'Mexican annexation proposal' - was obviously wrong. But was this simply a rhetorical gesture? Even if it were true, his points in that single document are legitimate and Debs answers betray his brand of Christian moralising.
By the way, on the (Emma) Lazarus inscription:

"The New Colossus"
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

Emma Lazarus, 1883


"The New Colossus"...was forgotten and played no role at the opening of the statue in 1886. In 1901, Lazarus's friend Georgina Schuyler began an effort to memorialize Lazarus and her poem, which succeeded in 1903 when a plaque bearing the text of the poem was mounted on the inner wall of the pedestal of the Statue of Liberty.

"Lazarus was the fourth of seven children of Moses Lazarus and Esther Nathan, Sephardic Jews whose families, originally from Portugal, had been settled in New York since the colonial period (Sephardic slave owner antecedents, morphed into bankers?). She was related through her mother to Benjamin N. Cardozo, Associate Justice of the US Supreme Court."

And Debs: slightly different words, same motivation:

"Away with the "tactics" which require the exclusion of the oppressed and suffering slaves who seek these shores with the hope of bettering their wretched condition and are driven back under the cruel lash of expediency by those who call themselves Socialists in the name of a movement whose proud boast it is that it stands uncompromisingly for the oppressed and down-trodden of all the earth. These poor slaves HAVE JUST AS GOOD A RIGHT TO ENTER HERE AS EVEN THE AUTHORS OF THIS REPORT WHO NOW SEEK TO EXCLUDE THEM*. The only difference is that the latter had the advantage of a little education and had not been so cruelly ground and oppressed, but in point of principle there is no difference, the motive of all being precisely the same, AND IF THE CONVENTION WHICH MEETS IN THE NAME OF SOCIALISM SHOULD DISCRIMINATE AT ALL IT SHOULD BE IN FAVOR OF THE MISERABLE RACES WHO HAVE BORNE THE HEAVIEST BURDENS AND ARE MOST NEARLY CRUSHED TO THE EARTH.**"

*This is the same sentiment that today is totally indifferent to the outsourcing of western jobs to Third World coolie labour platforms. Whatever his other merits, on this Debs was a capitalist's bitch.

**Here he shows a total disdain, not only for pliancy to the boss more extant among certain nationalities, but to social class as well.
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-21 07:22:25 UTC
Permalink
*This is the same sentiment that today is totally indifferent to the outsourcing of western jobs to Third World coolie labour platforms. Whatever his other merits, on this Debs was a capitalist's bitch.

Sorry altogether too charitable: he'd ADVOCATE it making him something worse than this descriptor!
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-21 08:08:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
*This is the same sentiment that today is totally indifferent to the outsourcing of western jobs to Third World coolie labour platforms. Whatever his other merits, on this Debs was a capitalist's bitch.
Sorry altogether too charitable: he'd ADVOCATE it making him something worse than this descriptor!
And is this even in need of being said:
"She (Lazarus) is an important forerunner of the Zionist movement. She argued for the creation of a Jewish homeland thirteen years before Theodor Herzl began to use the term Zionism. Lazarus is buried in Beth-Olom Cemetery in Brooklyn."

...and of course she's a darling of contemporary American Jewry:

"Emma Lazarus was honored by the Office of the Manhattan Borough President in March 2008 and her home on West 10th Street was included in a map of Women's Rights Historic Sites.[14] The Museum of Jewish Heritage featured an exhibition about Emma Lazarus in 2012."
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-21 08:57:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
*This is the same sentiment that today is totally indifferent to the outsourcing of western jobs to Third World coolie labour platforms. Whatever his other merits, on this Debs was a capitalist's bitch.
Sorry altogether too charitable: he'd ADVOCATE it making him something worse than this descriptor!
"She (Lazarus) is an important forerunner of the Zionist movement. She argued for the creation of a Jewish homeland thirteen years before Theodor Herzl began to use the term Zionism. Lazarus is buried in Beth-Olom Cemetery in Brooklyn."
"Emma Lazarus was honored by the Office of the Manhattan Borough President in March 2008 and her home on West 10th Street was included in a map of Women's Rights Historic Sites.[14] The Museum of Jewish Heritage featured an exhibition about Emma Lazarus in 2012."
It's also true and significant that Debs didn't even try to invoke Marx and Engels in this justification of Open-Doors-to-all-Especially-the-Most-Backward.
srd
2015-08-21 18:47:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
poor slaves HAVE JUST AS GOOD A RIGHT TO ENTER HERE AS EVEN THE AUTHORS OF THIS REPORT WHO NOW SEEK TO EXCLUDE THEM*
But notice: unlike the Open Borderists, he didn't say "as much right to enter as any native has stay." The authors were themselves immigrants, a point that is easy to miss in the present historical context.

If the issue had been Open Borders, Debs would have had to confront a whole different set of arguments.

srd
Vngelis
2015-08-21 19:52:41 UTC
Permalink
Hyper globalists of Weekly Wanker specifically have stated there is no English nation.
This may apply to Yankieland where their views originate from but not from Europe.
Nation states in Europe go back from hundreds to thousands of years. They weren't a project in the making like the USA... until very recently.
VN
srd
2015-08-21 21:08:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vngelis
Hyper globalists of Weekly Wanker specifically have stated there is no English nation.
Prickish bullshit. That's 180 degrees from their position on England.

You've come to confuse ideological struggle with merely being a prick and trying to get under the skin of enemies by saying outlandish things about them. They're not lies, as lying requires the intent to deceive. You don't intend to deceive, only to annoy. [What kind of jackass prick proclaims that I deny that there's U.S. immigration.]

You should quote them (were you serious). But then, you don't follow others' formats. You're above ordinary norms of discussion. That's, after all, what pricks always think.

srd

srd
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-22 00:39:51 UTC
Permalink
Hyper globalists of Weekly Wanker specifically have stated there is no English nation.
This may apply to Yankieland where their views originate from but not from Europe.
Nation states in Europe go back from hundreds to thousands of years. They weren't a project in the making like the USA... until very recently.
VN


Prickish bullshit. That's 180 degrees from their position on England.

You've come to confuse ideological struggle with merely being a prick and trying to get under the skin of enemies by saying outlandish things about them. They're not lies, as lying requires the intent to deceive. You don't intend to deceive, only to annoy. [What kind of jackass prick proclaims that I deny that there's U.S. immigration.]

You should quote them (were you serious). But then, you don't follow others' formats. You're above ordinary norms of discussion. That's, after all, what pricks always think.

srd

I don't think there is any need to quote them on this as it comes across very clearly with each edition. As I read it, Vngelis' point is that, for those around the WW, when it comes to immigration, prior rights of the British worker do not exist. Of course on the British nation, their practice is even more severe: it is to be punished till death.

Of course "formal positions"* are another matter and arguing about them with them is to give them far more credibility than the lying bastards deserve. And much the same goes for the whole of the Far Left. And it didn't start yesterday: they have the blood of Western nations and their organised working class on their hands.


*Finding "formal positions" in among the practice of the left - INCLUDING - their stated positions on very concrete immediate matters, is like searching with an electron microscope for evidence of the existence of one particle of gold dust in a sewer, wading through the decayed food, the shit, puss, dismembered rats, torn and perished French letters, the macerated foetuses...
srd
2015-08-22 02:31:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Vngelis
Hyper globalists of Weekly Wanker specifically have stated there is no English nation.
This may apply to Yankieland where their views originate from but not from Europe.
Nation states in Europe go back from hundreds to thousands of years. They weren't a project in the making like the USA... until very recently.
VN
Prickish bullshit. That's 180 degrees from their position on England.
You've come to confuse ideological struggle with merely being a prick and trying to get under the skin of enemies by saying outlandish things about them. They're not lies, as lying requires the intent to deceive. You don't intend to deceive, only to annoy. [What kind of jackass prick proclaims that I deny that there's U.S. immigration.]
You should quote them (were you serious). But then, you don't follow others' formats. You're above ordinary norms of discussion. That's, after all, what pricks always think.
srd
I don't think there is any need to quote them on this as it comes across very clearly with each edition. As I read it, Vngelis' point is that, for those around the WW, when it comes to immigration, prior rights of the British worker do not exist. Of course on the British nation, their practice is even more severe: it is to be punished till death.
Of course "formal positions"* are another matter and arguing about them with them is to give them far more credibility than the lying bastards deserve. And much the same goes for the whole of the Far Left. And it didn't start yesterday: they have the blood of Western nations and their organised working class on their hands.
*Finding "formal positions" in among the practice of the left - INCLUDING - their stated positions on very concrete immediate matters, is like searching with an electron microscope for evidence of the existence of one particle of gold dust in a sewer, wading through the decayed food, the shit, puss, dismembered rats, torn and perished French letters, the macerated foetuses...
I've tried this charitable interpretation. I reject it when I find something that I know isn't charitably explained. In no way have I ever denied that there's U.S. immigration. Or even denied it isn't a bad thing.

No need to respond if you don't want to. I see no reason to discuss prickism at length. [It's something of a revelation. One lacks the mindset to attribute political actions to personal character. [I begin to get a very ugly picture of what vngelis is like as a person. With you, the opposite.]

Prickism can also serve to provide a rationalization for the extreme isolation and marginalization of one's politics.

srd

srd
srd
2015-08-22 02:34:47 UTC
Permalink
The other proof of pure prickishness is his claim that I'm a plagiarist - which he then refuses to defend.

You can defend this instance or that as a hyperbolic style - or even as you imply, cutting to the essence. But when you see the whole picture, including utterly unpolitical flames about plagiarism (the only time I came close to stealing an idea was the WW that vngelis praised, which was influenced by him. He excused me then)-- if, like me, you will then see a gestalt shift: and suddently apprehend a prick.

srd
Vngelis
2015-08-22 08:21:35 UTC
Permalink
Weekly Wanker wrote it a few years ago. Indeed they were confronted on it. If there is no English nation then there must be no Russian or Chinese or Indian. They just went silent.
Hyperglobalism a by product of the City of London is their only political raison d etre.

The bullshit you state you can't afford the book is bullshit. Email your address and I'll post you one. Its on me.
VN
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-22 00:16:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by srd
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
poor slaves HAVE JUST AS GOOD A RIGHT TO ENTER HERE AS EVEN THE AUTHORS OF THIS REPORT WHO NOW SEEK TO EXCLUDE THEM*
But notice: unlike the Open Borderists, he didn't say "as much right to enter as any native has stay." The authors were themselves immigrants, a point that is easy to miss in the present historical context.
If the issue had been Open Borders, Debs would have had to confront a whole different set of arguments.
srd
Though there are striking parallels, there are differences in context, mainly that the flood into - expanding - America was different to the flood into an America in decline, a decline - ultimately - brought about by the logic of its own development, the ascendancy of Finance Capital and the growth of the Transnational Corporation.

Jewish tribal power is therefore now on top and we are perhaps seeing what their Elders always wished for - the elimination of serious competition from any element in society, be it native European/European founder bourgeois or petty bourgeois competitive superiority or, objectively far more dangerous, working class social hegemony.
srd
2015-08-22 02:41:18 UTC
Permalink
I think Debs was sincerely offended that three immigrants would wax anti-immigrant. This was exacerbated by the fact that their arguments were partly biologically racial (which is why they didn't apply them to themselves [that's what "thinking themselves superior" is about] - although Untermann downplayed these concerns in his polemic. What he did there is radically overestimate the time it took to assimilate a Chinaman, for instance. He believed the races had deep qualitative differences and were in an evolutionary competition. In other words, he had imbibed, like the whole intelligentsia, the dogmas of Social Darwinism. To his credit, Debs rejected those, which helps give his bleeding heart Christian moralism historical credibility.

srd
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-22 09:20:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by srd
I think Debs was sincerely offended that three immigrants would wax anti-immigrant. This was exacerbated by the fact that their arguments were partly biologically racial (which is why they didn't apply them to themselves [that's what "thinking themselves superior" is about] - although Untermann downplayed these concerns in his polemic. What he did there is radically overestimate the time it took to assimilate a Chinaman, for instance. He believed the races had deep qualitative differences and were in an evolutionary competition. In other words, he had imbibed, like the whole intelligentsia, the dogmas of Social Darwinism. To his credit, Debs rejected those, which helps give his bleeding heart Christian moralism historical credibility.
srd
The origins of it all was the desire of the bourgeoisie to build railroads etc as cheaply as they could. They weren't 'racist'; they could wall themselves off from the strangeness of living among Chinese coolies, even more of having to compete with this dyed in the wool, hardened, culture (and similarly others like the South Indians) that the British Empire moved at will from one nation to another, displacing the natives, even recalcitrant former slaves, in the process and leaving a permanent trail of division and severe discord to this very day in the process. There was, in other words, a total disdain for everything but their profits. Debs, whose eventually completely displaced and failed outfit wasn't and couldn't have been up to the enormous scale of assimilation etc as claimed, was objectively their spokesman.
Dusty Track
2023-03-15 09:35:38 UTC
Permalink
A great thread on Immigration.

srd
2015-08-20 21:33:03 UTC
Permalink
vngelis wrote a book on Marxism and immigration (which I would read if I could afford the price). What did he have to say about Untermann's contribution?

srd
t***@yahoo.com.au
2015-08-20 22:40:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by srd
vngelis wrote a book on Marxism and immigration (which I would read if I could afford the price). What did he have to say about Untermann's contribution?
srd
Since Untermann didn't get a mention even in WZ Foster's History, it doesn't feature. Books on the IWW written over the last, say 30 years, were written by Cultural Marxists who are liars-for-a-'higher'-purpose, any written by a Jew doubly so.

VN Gelis' books contain much material from this site which are original, thoughtful and valuable contributions to the anti-globalisation fight. His role has been that of the central anchor and you have played an important part in many ways, albeit at times by forcing arguments and explorations to go in the opposite direction from which you - apparently -intended. But I have always taken that as a by-product of a good old Jew intellectual bun fight, slightly above haggling over the price of an Eastern rug.
srd
2015-08-21 01:50:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com.au
But I have always taken that as a by-product of a good old Jew intellectual bun fight, slightly above haggling over the price of an Eastern rug.
One does what one can.

srd
Vngelis
2015-08-20 23:31:06 UTC
Permalink
Price isn't set by me but amount of pages contained in book.
The American experience is one to avoid and has not much to learn from.
Plus Yanks banned it.
VN
Continue reading on narkive:
Loading...